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In which a noob asks about mindscapes

Discussion in 'Beginner and Creation Help' started by Quinn, Apr 23, 2016.

  1. Quinn

    Quinn Hopeful world builder Singlet

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    Hello everyone! I'm Quinn, and I'm mew to this whole plurality thing.

    Thing is though, I have an idea. A big idea. And I'm hoping this community might be able to help me out. But it'll take lots of words for me to explain how, so bear with me.

    So, for most of my life, I've had this dream, or urge, or some mix of both, to create a world. Not literally, but in a "fictional" sense. Akin to the work of Tolkien - the difference being, I want realism. I want a world that is so vast, detailed, and real, that I can explore it and be as surprised by what I find as the inhabitants of the world itself. Essentially, I want a planet sized mindscape.

    The good news is that I already have a template. I know of some of this world's history, placws, and characters. But right now, they're fictional. Just words on pages and ideas. I want this world to be autonomous.

    It's a complicated desire, I know, and probably very hard to make a reality. But I want it - and you guys seem like you know what you're doing with this kind of thing.

    So my question, then, is this: can I do it? Can I use the methods of tulpamancy, and maybe loci, to bring my world to life? Please give me yur insight, and in lots of words if you must!
     
  2. Falah

    Falah aka the Chiaroscuro

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    This is something we can actually provide a detailed commentary on, as we have a world that is something like this. I first have to ask something, though. Namely: when you say "explore", do you mean simply conceptually, or as if you were physically there, immersed within the world itself, like a lucid dream or even reality?

    I must also ask, what level of realism do you want? Something that conforms strictly to biology, physics, and so forth? And how do you plan to interact with this world?

    We know some on this forum with worlds like these (@FallFamily) or similar experiences, such as persistent dreamscapes (@Timbredoodle). The techniques you would use are not necessarily tulpamancy techniques, but would have a few things in common conceptually.
     
  3. FallFamily

    FallFamily Forum Goddesses Administrator Moderator Plural System Mixed-Origin System

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    [Hail] We have 4 such innerworlds that we know of. There may be two more (I am not the one who would know). Though most are either uninhabited by any animal life except when any of us are there and then it is just us. Only one or two are inhabited.

    Two (or three) of them were made by the methods that Tri outlines in Wonderland Creation Via Daydreaming. Based on what you described, I would guess that in a sense, you have already started to make the world - you have probably daydreamed about it. The trick is to make the daydreams more focused and establish permanence in the world from one session to another without you having to constantly write it each time you go there. It can help to do this in a place that is rather enclosed since you have less space in range of your senses to maintain. Inside a house with curtains closes that is inside a valley works well. Once you have established permanence in the house, you can go outside of it and do it in the valley and not be overwhelmed by too large a space. At some point, things will start to appear that you did not set but fit. Say, in the night sky, you made a moon but a few days later there are suddenly stars too. The idea is to get to the point where things work like clockwork and when you leave the confines of the enclosed area, it is already filled in.

    Now, the people and other inhabitants of the world are similar. Start with say, having a town or city in the distance where one can see it, but not the individual people. Wait till the town or city changes naturally (say, lights turn on at night and then turn off when people go to bed), and then venture closer and see who you see and meet. This wasn't exactly how we did it, but it probably would be more reliable than our way, which was me making several proto-tulpas and various puppets. Took a long time for them to get autonomy. I think the method I outlined here would probably be more effective.

    As far as realism, there are two aspects - the physics and laws of nature, and the level you can immerse yourself in it. The former might stabilize automatically or might require some forcing at first. Do be prepared for a few deviations. As for the latter, immersion, that is something that has to be worked on through practice. There are many pieces on this site written on how to achieve better immersion. At the extreme end, it is possible to be immersed to the point that it is just as real perceptually as outerworld is when you are fronting. I've done this a couple times. Do be warned, with a high level of realism, the more immersed you are, the more careful you will have to be. You may find that you can feel pain and other things to stronger and stronger degrees the more you immerse. I certainly do. Just make sure you take note of this. Such things aren't bad since they are a part of the world, but something you should be prepared for.
     
  4. ForestOfSouls

    ForestOfSouls New Member Mixed-Origin System Is a host

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    Kid: Sounds like you're talking about a paracosm. You want a very detailed, fully functioning world that more or less manages itself? We have several in our mindscape, connected through a central forest that acts as a hub. Like Hail mentioned, our mindscapes have all been created through daydreaming. After learning about tulpamancy, all the worlds that I had created through my many many years worth of daydreaming all seemed to start functioning interdependently on their own. I don't often visit them (although I do look in on them fairly frequently, and 'garden' them a bit, checking facts in my head through daydreams, filling missing holes) but sometimes I'll look in on them and find things completely different, or I'll chat with one of my tulpas and find out something completely new about the world that I never knew. The main Paracosm, Asteria, seems to function in real time parallel to this world. For example, if I want to check in on my tulpa Jen who lives there, I know I'm better off bothering her on the weekend or in the evening, since she works on weekdays. Based on other people with mindscapes I've talked to though, it seems as if time seems to function a bit different from system to system.

    Seems like you've got a few guideline bases for how you want your paracosm to work. I think daydreaming the world and figuring out how it works is the first step, and as long as you're patient and willing to spend a lot of time thinking about it, or if you have trouble remembering the things you've thought up, writing it down, then that part of it shouldn't be too hard. That said, I've spent many many years daydreaming about my worlds, so expect it to take a bit of time. The second part of what you want, immersion, autonomy, feeling the world as if it's real, that part is going to be the harder step. I've been doing this for a long time, and even I don't feel like I'm 'there' exactly. Sometimes it can be hard for me to see things when I try to exist there rather than looking in, and objects in the world come across as foggy and indistinct. It will take a lot of time and practice for you to get where you want to be, but you can do it with lots of hard work.

    Let us know if you want to exchange notes; talking about your paracosm can be a really good way to develop it, especially if you've got someone asking questions about it. Sometimes they can see things that you ordinarily wouldn't. Good luck!
     
  5. Quinn

    Quinn Hopeful world builder Singlet

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    This is really good info! I'll probably be chatting with FallFamily, and you as well, about this. I have a lot of small, detail - oriented questions, and I definitely want to do this right.

    My first question is this: how will death work? See, this world will have a history tracing thousands, maybe millions of years, and living beings will die. And if each being is independent - a tulpa of their own - then thousands of millions of deaths could be occurring in my head. What insight could you give me in this area?

    To answer your question on exploring: I want to be able to interact with the world as much, or as little, as I want. Granted, I won't want much; I have no place in this world save for an observer and relayed of its tales.

    (Moderator Edit: Please avoid double-posting outside of journals and adding to older topics. Thanks!)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2016
  6. Watcher

    Watcher Somewhere Between Motivated and Cold

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    We have an innerworld that works something like this as well. It wasn't something any of us willfully created, though if I had to offer any advice on building a world from the ground up, look into conworlding/worldbuilding resources for writers, and start with an area that interests you most, like a specific place or culture. Once you've got one chunk fleshed out, keep looking at causes and effects. So like, if kingdom A hates kingdom B, what's the context behind that? Also keep in mind, as with our innerworld, chances are those blanks will fill themselves in on their own the more you observe and the more time you spend there. A big aspect of it is just frequency of contact, even if it's through observation.

    Death happens in our innerworld. It's not really something we can stop, or at the very least it would be about as futile trying to stop it there as it would be here. Trust me, we've tried to bring people back and failed. As for how we handle it... well, it's a fact of life for us, same as it is here. Most system mates usually stay out of the deeper reaches of the innerworld and stick to the main system instead, since areas outside of that world are a lot more fluid and we can't really "die" the way we can in the innerworld proper. This is probably confusing, so I'll put it like this: different parts of the system have different ground rules, and the innerworlds are a different part of our system with different rules than, say, "wonderland" type areas we built from scratch.

    So, will this be the case for your innerworld? That's something I can't say. Like I said, ours sort of came as a package deal, but if you're going to build a world from the ground up more or less, you may have more of an opportunity to establish the rules right away or change them if things like death make you uneasy. Maybe have a soul/reincarnation system or something. You won't know what's possible until you try.
     
  7. Quinn

    Quinn Hopeful world builder Singlet

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    That makes a lot of sense. My second question then, in light of that is: will every person in this world (let's call it the Vana for now) be a fully realized tulpa, or person? Or will the majority of living things be semi-sentient, or less? And in line with that, what it my minds capacity, as it were? Can this brain handle an entire world of people, for untold generations?
     
  8. Mel

    Mel Climbed Over the Fourth Wall

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    Ahh, that is the question, isn't it? How do you really know something is sentient or not sentient? "Sentience" itself simply means having the capacity to experience subjectivity. If you were to walk up to an innerworlder and poke them in the eye and make them mad at you, would that be because they subjectively experience you poking their eye, or because they are pre-programmed to? How would you tell one apart from the other?

    At the most empirical level, you cannot. It is our philosophy that, if something looks like a duck and walks like a duck, we treat it like a duck. Which is to say, if something appears sentient, we treat it as such. I know for a fact that if I were to walk around asserting the others in the innerworld were not as truly sentient as I, or that they were somehow not real, I would be put in a madhouse, as "truly" sentient or not they would not take too kindly to it regardless.

    So far as capacity goes, @Falah had an interesting theory on that, I recall, in which system mates exist like compressed files in an archive folder, but I forget the exact details at the moment.
     
  9. ForestOfSouls

    ForestOfSouls New Member Mixed-Origin System Is a host

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    Death is just a fact of the mindscape, the same way that life is. In Asteria, for example, I'm very attached to a group of people in the distant past, as is subjective to the 'present' (as defined to the period in which Jen lives). A number of these people die in the past, but that doesn't mean I can't go look in on the 'past' while they're still alive. Time is pretty subjective in our mindscapes. I can jump to different time sections of it if I want to.

    That said, I can't really determine a difference between the people living in the mindscape, and my tulpas, as far as how they react to situations. The only thing I use to define someone as a 'system mate' is whether or not they're aware of the front. So yes, people can die in the mindscape. But because everything is fully autonmous, I don't have any control over it. I've tried in the past to change things, and it often doesn't work out very well.

    You will not be aware of all the people in you mindscape all at the same time. Assuming everything is running autonomously, then lots and lots of stuff will happen without you being aware of it. For example, I once had a casual conversation with my tulpa Serif, and he told me that his brother had a pet dog, a german shepherd mix, named Muppet who he often takes out walking through the city. This was all information I had no idea about up until Serif mentioned it to me offhand. Learning about the mindscapes often feel more like the worlds telling me about them, then they do me determining things about them.
     
  10. Quinn

    Quinn Hopeful world builder Singlet

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    That's actually brilliant! That clears up a lot of confusion I still had, and makes me feel a lot more confident in looking into this.
    And I don't necessarily have to be directly involved in the world? While I don't really mind if inhabitants of the Vana know of the front, but I want the Vana itself to function as if I didn't exist - or the front, for that matter.

    With the exception of Vajra, but that's because she created the world anyway.
     
  11. Watcher

    Watcher Somewhere Between Motivated and Cold

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    Nah, there's a number of innerworlds in our system I don't involve myself in at all that other system mates do, and others still that I purely observe through daydreaming, etc. There's a lot of different ways to experience a paracosm/innerworld.
     
  12. Quinn

    Quinn Hopeful world builder Singlet

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    Alright, this is amazing! You guys are such a huge help, and you can bet I'll be looking into this to see what I can do.
     
  13. ForestOfSouls

    ForestOfSouls New Member Mixed-Origin System Is a host

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    Kid: Usually when I'll go innerworld into a place where I wouldn't pass as myself I'll disguise myself in some way so that I look indistinguishable from someone innerworld. There's no reason that someone inside the system would instantly know who you were the moment they looked at you. Red, our resident inneworld Traveler, visits Jen pretty frequently so most of Jen's innerworld friends and coworkers know him by a fake backstory, and he wears clothes appropriate for the area. It's nice to be able to exist in the world as a member of the world, and not something distinct or different. It helps you learn about the world better, since people act differently if they know they're being observed.
     
  14. Quinn

    Quinn Hopeful world builder Singlet

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    That's really helpful, thanks!
     
  15. FallFamily

    FallFamily Forum Goddesses Administrator Moderator Plural System Mixed-Origin System

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    [Hail] On the subject of death, a relevant thread would be In-System Immortality (and Mortality).

    Death is a part of life. I know that this is not something that is a common feeling to be held, but to me personally, I think that is rather beautiful. But enough on the philosophie.

    If people in a world don't die, then the population will grow if they reproduce at all. Now, if say the people don't die of aging, but can die of disease or calamity, then some reproduction can maintain a stable population. Of course, people could instead have very long lifespans. Mortality and immortality are relative. Compared to bacteria, humans are immortal. California Red Woods are comparatively immortal to humans.

    Obsidian's sister often says this one quote "The first rule of immortality is that everything dies, including you."

    In our main innerworld, none of us can be killed by normal methods - just absorption. In Tri's world, we are probably immune to death by aging (though there is a slight possibility of a lifespan of about 30,000 years), but not calamity or being killed. Just, very hard to kill. Sadly, that means we can survive things that are best not surviving.